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12-03-2005, 11:58 PM sergey Joined on 11-20-2005 Posts 25 New technique - very effective! Just this week in practice, I have discovered what I believe to be a new technique that is absolutely FANTASTIC if you can pull it off.  If you can, you will win every time.  However, before I tell you how to do it I want to make sure that when you tell your friends how you just beat them that you refer to the technique as "The Sergey" so that I get the credit!  LOL!  So here is how you do it:  As soon as the match starts, you drop down into position for a posting toproll.  When you post, don't bite on their thumb very hard but ease off just enough to move out on their fingers and thumb like you would in a normal posting toproll.  Now here is the new part:  Rather than trying to toproll to victory, where your wrist is in a very weak position and your fingers are in position that if your opponent is fast enough he can get a "slip grip" you instead turn your wrist into the hook position while maintaining your position of being out on your opponent's hand.  In other words, when you post you cause your fingers to straighten.  Instead of biting down on them and turning into a toproll where your grip is very weak, you instead maintain being out on his hand but turn your hand into a hook and then bite down and take him down.  Obviously you cannot hook from this position, but you can still fall off the table exactly like a toproll.  You are not actually hooking at all but just using a different wrist position that makes your job much easier.  The only difference between your typical toproll and "the Sergey" is that it is easier to maintain backpressure, easier to hold onto your opponent's fingers, and harder for him to slip out.  You will hit those easy pins almost every time!  I couldn't lose with this move, so long as I was able to hit hte post before they hooked me.  Now I should caution that maybe the reason this worked so well was because no one else had seen it before and that there is some way to adapt to it.  But even if that is the case, you should give it a shot until people catch on and figure out how to defeat it!  Remeber, call it "The Sergey".    Report

12-04-2005, 7:44 PM BigJoeD Joined on 11-18-2005 Posts 9 Re: New technique - very effective! I must be missing something, because when I try to roll off the table I cannot do it unless I come out of the post position a little bit.  Also, I have trouble with the guy getting me back into a hook when I go into the hook wrist position while toprolling.  Please clarify.     Report

12-04-2005, 9:03 PM IRNewton Joined on 11-18-2005 Florida Posts 29 Re: New technique - very effective! I hate to burst anyones bubble but if it's armwrestling it has already been done. At any rate the move has been so perfected at this point that it has varied out into several different points of attack. Anything from after opening the hand going to a tricep press on back to simply setting up outside and doing a thing called a high hook. If I am not mistaken I believe I saw Devon Laratt wearing a shirt at the supermatch with Tim Bresnan that actually said something like High Hookers or High Hookers club on it. It isnt just the arm position with these guys though . They have the body position down. It comes together with a special positioning of the body and arm along with a toprolling grip. The hit is alot of side though because if you really want to end a match fast you dont want to get into a hook with some so the most logical place to hit is with severe finger strength and right into the palm of their hand so as to not be caught in the wrist pull. They live for it. You have to grip low enough with the lower part of your hand to prevent escape but as high as a ref will allow on their thumb. It is a difficult feat but possible. Then the heavy ribar type back pressure at the ready so you dont scare them off too soon and crushing finger strength along with a hit from the side right into their fingers. If all goes right and you can hold onto them it becomes a posting hook similar to a full hand roll as you head for the pad. Word of caution would be at about halfway there you should be checking your ring finger and pinky finger strength to make sure your not fixing to get the big surprise and have someone roll you right out of it.    I edit alot of armwrestling video and have broken down to frames from tournaments as far back as the 70's and watched body position and elbow placement along with the hit. It is always the same on the most successful people I have wrestled around. The only thing that makes it way outside is the closeness in the strength and experience of the two opponents. For instance many matches resulting in the slip and the straps only to find out who was stronger in the arm because the technique of both opponents was flawless would be match ups like Davey Patton and Bill Arnold, Davey Patton and Cole Nabors and in that era George Givens and Sam Battles and Glenn Brooks. Johnny Walker and John Brzenk jr. is a good example. In alot of cases back in the day there were opposing contrasting techniques that would ensue with A freakish strong Hook and the same in a toproll. I myself have engaged in this same kind of volley of matches over the past two years with Terry Burgin. I am way stronger but the only thing that would save me from his roll was if I could do the toproll technique equally as well as him and have a stronger hand to prevent escape. I pull like a toproller with strong backpressure but I do not grip as high so as to not play into the fingerlacing. I first executed this thing you are talking about in 1986 at the worlds in Calcutta India in the final match with Aleandro Zadra? I pulled back as hard as I could to make him think we were rolling and then slammed foward into a deep hook for the win. It worked but was crude compared to my description of what has been developed since then until present.  The weakest part of any opponents arm is going to be right where the palm and the 4 fingers come together. You dismantle them with superior hand strength and back pressure followed by a convincing side hit through that part of the hand and you are almost there but you must not forget after passing say the 10 oclock region an experienced toproller is going to test your ring and pinky fingers strength on a recovery attempt. If you need any european examples of contrasting wrestler of this nature and people that have done well in both techniques I can supply those names as well. They have been evolving at an record pace and while most europeans prefer to battle it out in a hook there are some that have evolved and will be doing better than others , beating up thier hook power so much. Fareed Uzminov is a great example of a wrestler that has the complete package currently. Taras Ivankin from the Ukraine is a little overboard on his top compared to his hook but very sound and will be a major once he stops heading for the fence outside and strengthens his hand. I am sure John Brzenk would agree with that viewpoint. There are some great hooking strength wrestlers that will always have a day in the sun but they will not be complete until they stop flopping their hands back . Someone will always come along eventually that will have enough to hold them out and when you are out on a hand you are using about 20% of the energy they opponent with his hand flopped back is using.  Best of luck . It sounds like you have the armwrestling bug. I remembered when I won the worlds in 1986 thinking that move should be named after me but I had some teamates from Georgia in Bert Whitfield and David Randall that showed me where it had all been done before. Bert Whitfields hand strength and his back strength was phenomenal . He would never show people but he could walk up to a door and take a grip on that little piece of trim over the top just on the end of his fingers and do a one arm pullup. My own training partners thought I was full of crap until I let them do what they wanted and I did what I knew and in the end they were kind of disappointed with 3rd and 4th . I did a little better so they came back and resumed a complete workout including cardio for endurance and things changed. It is ok that they have missed practice latley and the Florida State is next weekend . Check the results after and you decide . I am looking to do well no matter who shows up even if I am old haha. Success to you.  moral, The best offense cannot be executed without a flawless defense.     Report

12-07-2005, 5:45 PM sergey Joined on 11-20-2005 Posts 25 Re: New technique - very effective! The real key is that when you get ready to roll back into the hook position I am only talking about your wrist position.  Otherwise you are still posted and going to do the "toproll fall."  Before you regrip into the hook-like wrist position, you really loosen your grip.  Then when you do turn your wrist back in, the space in between your thumb and index finger should be up against the middle or even out toward the end (by the nail) of your opponent's thumb.  See now his hand is open just like in a successful toproll, but the beauty is that you have a MUCH better grip see because you are able to hold his hand and fingers in place a lot better in the hook wrist position than in the toproll.  Yet the opponent is still at a disadvantage - the same one as if he was being toprolled.  The chance of a slip is a lot less.  One other tip is that you probably don't turn your wrist quite as far as if you were deep hooking, but you still turn your wrist in the direction of a hook - in rather than out rotation.     Report

12-07-2005, 5:52 PM sergey Joined on 11-20-2005 Posts 25 Re: New technique - very effective! Thanks for the post IRNewton!  A question for you though. As I am reading it, you are saying that you basically toproll so that you doing put your hand real high.  In other words, if your fingers were extended they would be pointing more toward the opponent than the ceiling.  Is that correct?  I am curious about why this is superior to the other wrist position before you toproll.  I can see that you could probably fight back against the backpressure better because your fingers would be in a better position, but isn't one of the best things about the toproll fighting the other guy's fingers?  I was also curious about if you toproll without finger fighting but the other guy does try to perform the finger fight type of toproll.  How would that effect success? One other question real quick.  I saw on another thread that you have some AMAZING curling strength.  If you don't mind, could you please share your workout /strategy that allowed you to build up such huge strength?  Thanks!!    Report

12-07-2005, 11:59 PM IRNewton Joined on 11-18-2005 Florida Posts 29 Re: New technique - very effective! Hi!    Yes I discovered some things over the years about fighting a toproll. I obviously wasnt the greatest toproller and when I posted up with someone who had a longer forearm even though I had more backpressure strength I would cause my hand to slip into their hand effectivley putting myself in a position where the only way I was going to win was to hold on to their thumb and drag it down . I know someone who actually pulls that way. His name is Jerry Cole. He is a powerline worker with a very strong grip. I watched him pull people and literally allow them to cover him up but then he pulled them down in severe pain by their thumb. I discovered from pulling a guy that wasnt stronger than I was but he had an amazing toproll ability that if I gripped him lower he not only didnt like it but if while doing so I matched his backpressure and I  had his hand where he could not cover me up and rotate out around my hand but he was trapped into facing me with either side or a deep hook which wasnt where he wanted to be considering it was my playground in there. I stress on hand strength with most people that pull with me and I believe that cutting off the opponents technique doing this kind of defensive move opens up or even completley turns the tables on them. You see when I keep someone from taking my hand they are in my control and at that point I can do either the hook or I can hit with straight side to break them but its open to me which ever way I want to go. In alot of cases with someone that isnt as strong as me I will just sit and cut off their exits. They hit high and it doesnt work because of the lower grip and my matching their backpressure and then they panic usually hitting again and stretching out . Then they climb and and try and thump me with the hook. That is in most toprollers  cases a big mistake with them being stopped cold. At that point its kind of like I am resting and they are expending alot of energy either trying to go back outside which its too late because when they come back in panicking I get more of the hand. At worst I have had someone just bail out under my hand and then we do it again. I spent many years with alot stronger arm than my opponents but I played into the high grip and found my hand at bay. In alot of cases I won with my hand back and even once at the worlds in Vladikavkaz Russia I dislocated my thumb trying to find a way to get my hand back. This was against a great Armwrestler with many many years experience. His name was Jimmy Fitzsimmons. He had a  reputation for being quite ferocious on the table . It really was a bad day for me with my next match being a younsgter named Marcio Barbosa and I had a dislocated thumb . It found me soul searching about why I had spent all these years and not looked closer at why I wasnt complete on the table. I opened my mind to the duality of the sport being inside and outside and proceeded to talk with alot of wrestlers and learn as much as I could . Until that point I had primarily always pulled more inside hook than anything and if someone took my hand I would head for the pad with my wrist back and we would slip. Once in the straps they could not get away from me and I won alot that way. I viewed that tactic for what it was . Sure it was a method that worked but it was not so satisfying and I saw myself for the first time as stubborn for not looking further. I didnt blame myself or feel sorry for myself for being so stubborn for long but yeah I was depressed for a little bit. Alot of the reason I didnt evolve quicker is that not many people would  be honest or give information as I am doing here. You had to be a part of their team or be close to them and swear not to spread it around. Some were honest though and eventually alot was shared .I also had damage that I didnt have fixed until early 2002 with broken bones in my elbow so it prevented me from being able to hit like I knew I could. I broke them in 1985 Over the top Qualifier pulling a guy named Robert Motel. Anyone that has a longer forearm than you and is a good toproller can ruin your day if you dont develop something to stop them. My solution was to improve my toproll but in some cases when you run into someone that is truly gifted with it you are gonna need to take an assesment of you own skills you can use . I have a pretty good hand and I learned how to combinate its strength and backpressure to bring out the best in it. I use the captains of crunch grippers to help among other things I learned from the physical therapist on suponation and pronation wrist exercises. Right now I pretty much keep the #2 around for warmups and stuff because the voit I used to use eventually broke in half on one of the handles. On a training night I go after the #3 and can close it maybe twice before it beats me up. I have a night all picked out for this type of training and I use a small sledge hammer for the suponation and pronation. I hit the gym for a little under 2 hours a session maybe 3 times a week. I work a different muscle set each time but on every visit I walk on a treadmill uphill first for anywhere from 15 minutes on a night I am just falling apart to 40 minutes on a good night. The speed is anywhere from 3.5 to 4 mph and the grade is 10 to 15 degrees incline. It equates out to anywhere from 800 or 900 foot climb over a mile or so to like 2.5 miles and 1500 feet elevation. I do a small amount of crunches and obliques every night I train as well. Then I move to the muscle group. I am a firm believer in donating one night to back meaning seated rows , pull overs and pullups  and one night to curls both seated concentration light weight and double armcurl machine heavy along with hammer curl which I do on the machine. One night along the way I squeeze in the free weight half curls seated with the heavy heavy weight but only if I am not destroyed by the rest of what I do. I usually will split the pullovers out from the pullups one night and do reverse tricep extensions with them that night along with lat raises or something. I change up alot because there is one tip I can give anyone that is armwrestling . This came from Mr. Andrew Cobra Rhodes himself. While developing your lift you should always remember it is about doing what is right for you. In a general sense you can learn from others but everyone is different so what is good for some might not neccessarily be right for you. My best advice is to remember you have your hands and wrist  and also you have your back and shoulders but you will defianltley need a pair of good legs as well. Not to mention biceps and triceps.  If you have a table curl which would basically be a heavily built table and a good elbow pad you can work with table curling free weight. I just find it easier with a machine that has a handle that I can hammer curl large weights.   If you look back through time at all the greats you will find that each and everyone of them had a great toproll and a great hook as well. If you look at how they won along the way you will see them only rarely hook. There is a reason for that.   Cobra used to tell me he would find a pole or pillar around wherever he was and just position his hand and build side pressure that way. I hope some of this helps . Remember the best offense sometimes is an even better defense. here is a sequence where I never gave up the thumb and eventually jumped in very fast to force a hook. It is myself and Robert Zeigler at 198 pounds. This was some time before my elbow surgery and now I have been pulling 209 class. 198 is a little thin for me. http://www.battlesbailbonds.com/files/2002Nationals/hanel/Nat2002l6054.jpg http://www.battlesbailbonds.com/files/2002Nationals/hanel/Nat2002l6056.jpg http://www.battlesbailbonds.com/files/2002Nationals/hanel/Nat2002l6057.jpg http://www.battlesbailbonds.com/files/2002Nationals/hanel/Nat2002l6058.jpg    Report

12-10-2005, 1:31 AM BigJoeD Joined on 11-18-2005 Posts 9 Re: New technique - very effective! So I am still trying to get my basic strategies down.  You said you would grip lower on their hand, which I assume means lower on thumb rather than higher.  I can see that you could hook better this way.  How do you toproll better this way, since you don't have access to their fingers?  Just curious and I am fairly new so I am still not really clear on how you would do the toproll in the same manner if you are gripping low on the hand.  Also, I checked out the series of pictures above and I cannot figure out how you fought the other guy back into the hook after he already got your thumb like we are talking about here.  The pictures sort of have the guy's body blocking your hand so I cannot see it.  If you could explain that a little bit it would be great!     Report

12-12-2005, 12:25 AM IRNewton Joined on 11-18-2005 Florida Posts 29 Re: New technique - very effective!  Ok I still grip as high as it is allowed on the thumb but I spread out my 3 remaining fingers just a little and go for my pinky laying right around the area where my opponents wrist meets their thumb leading my reach as far around the hand as possible.  I do cap one finger if I can. That set of pictures was a sequence that actually represents my refusal to release the opponents thumb. He toprolled very hard and no matter what I would not let go of the thumb. His was a one motion manuever and I found myself sitting right there until he was winded. At the moment that he ran out of gas and was going to let up I timed it and rushed in throwing my hip to the table and dragged him to me. This was a total reversal of the viewed outcome because I was quicker. It kind of demonstrates that you have to always be thinking on the table. I just returned from Florida State and I am out for the night. There should be some interesting video up in a day or so at ArmTV . I gave it a pretty good run but I am still looking to move up and hope to train even harder for my next encounter. I placed 2nd in the 209 class. My opponent of late has become Todd Hutchings from South Carolina. He is very strong and always thinking on the table. I am getting closer though and I hope to give him a better run next time. He is an extraordinarily ferocious armwrestler. I had two good matches with him and he managed to get me stretched away from my body in the end. I will work from that point to prevent this from happening next time. It can be a complicated process . He was faster than I expected and he has a new hit that is something you really cant prepare for unless you have faced it . I am even waiting on that segment so that I can look it over and see what I need to do. Night    Report

12-12-2005, 11:52 AM BigJoeD Joined on 11-18-2005 Posts 9 Re: New technique - very effective! Congrats on your second place finish.  I think that I have seen Todd Hutchings on the tournament that is often on espn?  He went up against a guy who would yell and all sorts of stuff and then Todd faulted and lost on that technicality.  I will check out that video.     Report

12-12-2005, 4:40 PM sergey Joined on 11-20-2005 Posts 25 Re: New technique - very effective! Can you possibly explain about what the new hit was like?  I would really love to learn a brand new, cutting edge technique.  It wasn't "the Sergey" was it?  HAHA!  But seriously if you could describe the move, that would be great.    Report

12-12-2005, 8:52 PM IRNewton Joined on 11-18-2005 Florida Posts 29 Re: New technique - very effective!  Hi Sergey   I guess I worded it wrong. It isnt so much as a New Hit that I meant. It was a stronger hit is really what I meant. The video should reveal more when it shows up on armtv. I went offensive and we slipped the first time going to the straps and I thought I was doing ok but things came off differently in the straps. It is kind of a blur until I see the video really. I was moving the same way I did the first time and felt like it was going to be moving in my direction and I cannot recall if he beat me to the hit that time or if I went and he came up with something that just found me being pulled out of my plan.. Then of course after much fighting in a bad position and finally being pulled down I went into the thoughts of how I was gonna try and stop him from doing it again. I think he simply got me off my game plan and I turned to my right in a defensive pattern when I should have stayed right in there and moved close and drove up. The second match found my backpressure causing my hand to slide into his and a bad position as a result but then another slip and straps and I do remember the second strap match that he just was quicker on the go.    Todd Hutchings is extremely strong and motivated . Next time I might also drink some coffee before the match and wake myself up. I noticed that was part of his preperation . Anyway the video will clear alot of things up when I see it. The man is not unbeatable and I will do better upon our next meeting even if I am 10 years older than he is. I do believe that I should deserve his respect at least. He didnt seem like he was having an easy time of it but as I said before the video will show more.    Report

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